Curse

Cathode_Reborn · Mar 05, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

The only times disenchants in pve ever touched my bar was in Slaver's exile (damn prot monks) and that one Ascalon area with all the Grawls (damn HH). Other than that.....seems kinda useless

As for other elites, Assassin's Promise is good but I just don't feel safe using it. Don't really like relying on the target to die to keep the rest of my bar working well. If it's NM, then maybe...but stilll even then not really a fan. Still a nice elite though.

Spiteful Spirit can be do massive damage, but I've also been in tons of situations where it's lame and makes me wonder why I still bring it. It's decent alot of the time usually. I still have good single target damage with necrosis and some eotn pve skills so I figure might as well use SS for aoe. Mark of pain is a good aoe skill but I often don't have too many physicals on the team.

[skill]Echo[/skill]

I've tried this as an elite. Echo necrosis puts out pretty high dps. Echo "you move like a dwarf" lets you throw out more KD and cripple to be used as interrupts or reducing melee pressure. Seeing 80+80+80+90+Deep wound is also kinda fun to look at. You could use Glyph of Renewal + Technobabble to daze lots of stuff for a more defensive role....don't forget the daze mod.

Not really too many decent elites for a pve Curse nec to use if you wanna stay offensive. There's Icy veins but the cold damage part is kinda meh.

N1ghtstalker · Mar 05, 2008, 08:29 PM // 20:29

SS is good when facing lots of enemies that tend to mob together
there are other curses that are good too when facing enemies that are widespread
for one popular and well known curse and very good in PvP [skill]corrupt enchantment[/skill]

nebuchanezzar · Mar 05, 2008, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Depends on the team you are running with. If you have lots of physicals that focus single targets, Barbs/MoP and Assassins Promise is very easy to kill with. I usually run Rigor Mortis also when I run a similar build. btw AP is all about the recharge, the energy gain is just freebie on top.
If you are running a minion-bomber I prefer SS(sometimes with AEcho if I can sometimes not)as minions refuse follow calls. Although oddly sometimes it almost seems like they want too lol. In that team build, the rest of the team focuses on the priority target's while I disable and pummel the physicals and throw Barbs on the priority targets when you can.
SS shines most though in the classic(pls don't flame I don't use it)tank'n'spank pug groups. Times like that AEcho is a must imo.
Three different team designs, 3 slightly different bars. The only necro curses skill that is honestly on my bar in every zone in PvE...Enfeebling Blood. Really THE most underrated skill by the average GW player imo....

Faer · Mar 05, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

I run Spiteful because I am lazy and pack my PvE hex bars full of fire-and-forget skills that require no effort on my part to be somewhat effective. However, I have messed with AP and various other elites and gotten some very interesting, and often pleasing, results.

I play my Monk when I want to think about what I'm doing. I play Necro when I want to sleep at the wheel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

My buddy and I went into DoA with a full Ursan group and instead of using Ursan, he ran this bar and we blew through DoA faster than I have ever seen.

Sorry, but if Spiteful Spirit was being that effective, than your Ursans were doing it wrong. SS shouldn't be killing anything that should be constantly knocked down.

Moloch Vein · Mar 05, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

As for other elites, Assassin's Promise is good but I just don't feel safe using it. Don't really like relying on the target to die to keep the rest of my bar working well. If it's NM, then maybe...but stilll even then not really a fan.

On the contrary, AP really glued onto my bar as I went into the harder 8-man HM areas of the game. The key to understand is that it doesn't matter much if the target dies while you're casting AP. It's better to cast a little too late than a little too early. Also with a moderate (8) investment in Deadly you'll have 10 seconds duration.

Another point to be made is that the best way to use it is to stick it on a weak target, that will surely pose no problem taking down. What you _DON'T_ do is stick it on a hard monk, for example. Put it on a minion!

Trvth Jvstice · Mar 05, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

[skill]assassin's promise[/skill] [skill]mark of pain[/skill] [skill]insidious parasite[/skill] [skill]price of failure[/skill] [skill]barbs[/skill] [skill]enfeebling blood[/skill] [skill]signet of lost souls[/skill] [wiki]Sunspear Rebirth Signet[/wiki]

I play with PUGs and heroes/henchmen. Would [skill=text]reckless haste[/skill] be better in one of those slots?

EDIT: off topic- see humor - Livia, your sig, "Your Death Will Not Be In Vain.Welcome To My Minion Army" reminds me of a comment I often make when I'm playing with a PUG that has a MM. "If I die, I want to be rezzed as a Bone Fiend." Always gets a laugh.

Calista Blackblood · Mar 06, 2008, 12:27 AM // 00:27

i would check with your group first what they would prefer you to take,the speed boost from reckless haste could catch the party out completely. likewise you can also slow them down

[skill]Shadow of Fear[/skill][skill]Reckless Haste[/skill]

Legends · Mar 06, 2008, 03:42 AM // 03:42

[skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill] is only essential on groups. It's a waste of energy focusing on one rather than many.

But hey that all depends.

I would say Essential in General PvE, but capping elites and such, well no.

blue.rellik · Mar 06, 2008, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

Sorry, but if Spiteful Spirit was being that effective, than your Ursans were doing it wrong. SS shouldn't be killing anything that should be constantly knocked down.

Well he was pugging so it's entirely possible that each bear was focusing on a completely separate target

Chthon · Mar 06, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

I've been using SS on my curse necro for quite a while, thinking it is the absolute best, highest dmg, most productive skill available for a curse Necro. But, in a recent thread about Spiteful Spirit, Ensign said this:

I've been reading GWG for quite a while, long before I became a member and I've always accepted Ensign's posts as fact, still do. But, his opinion about SS really has me puzzled. Other than Enfeebling Blood, I've always thought SS was the end all, beat all, best dmg dealer for a curse Necro. In the linked thread I asked Ensign to elaborate on his opinion about the usefulness of SS. He hasn't answered yet, so I'd like to know what the rest of you think about SS and why it is or isn't one of the best skills for a curse Necro.

A. I think Ensign's low opinion of SS stems in part from his belief that it only goes on non-priority targets. While it's true that that's the most efficient way to use SS, sometimes the most efficient way through a mob involves a handful of individual instances of inefficient skill use. If you've got a priority target that's peskily resilient, not only can you put SS on it, but you should put SS on it to break it. SS looks a lot more attractive if you're willing to occasionally use it inefficiently on the damage/energy and damage/cast time levels to get greater efficiency on the mob-dies-faster level.

B. Historically, SS has been the "win button" for GW PvE. Prior to hard mode, there wasn't a monk monster anywhere that could keep its party alive in the face of SS, and most even failed to outheal SS on themselves. And so SS was outcome-determinative -- so long as your party could survive, SS would ensure an eventual win. It didn't matter what Little Thom was doing -- at best he could make you win faster, but SS made sure you were going to win anyway. Even with the increased difficulty of EotN and HM, SS is still a single-skill kiss of death for many mobs.

Now, Ensign turns that on its head. Your imbagons and norn-shout MBers and whatnot are supposed to kill things so quickly that SS doesn't get time to matter. In some cases, I can believe that's true, especially if you're Ensign. But there's going to be at least three cases where it's not:

1. When the rest of the team is not 7 kick-ass characters from the outset. Sure, when you've got folks of Ensign's caliber filling out your party, a speedy victory is usually assured. But when you've got "players" like Little Thom -- or Talon, or Koss, or an average-skill-level guildie -- you're just not going to have the killing speed to make SS irrelevant. (Does that mean you have a damage problem? No, not really. It means your team is average. Only an exceptionally above-average team is going to have the punch it takes to go fast enough to make SS into a less-than-great skill.)

2. (As Ensign noted,) When something goes wrong and your kick-ass team fails to insta-kill a mob, SS has time to do its thing. At that point SS again becomes the skill that's primarily responsible for victory.

3. When you're badly outnumbered. If foes are really pouring in from all sides, you end up having to ignore some priority foes because there's just too many to deal with promptly. Here SS shines because it's by far the best way to say to the mobs that you'd otherwise have to ignore "here, why don't you guys go kill yourselves while we pay attention to this other mob." Think Vizunah Sq.

In sum, SS is still an essential curse skill for those of us who don't have elite-caliber teammates available, and at least occasionally an essential curse skill even for those who do.

Qdq Swi · Mar 06, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

In sum, SS is still an essential curse skill for those of us who don't have elite-caliber teammates available, and at least occasionally an essential curse skill even for those who do.

You don't need an elite-caliber team to breeze through NM PvE. SS isn't a staple skill.. Its just more useful than other elites in the Curses line. Its helpful, not a necesity, nor is it of top priority, Its just the best alternative.

matsif · Mar 06, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

I think FoC would be used MUCH more than it is now because it is just so darn hard to cap...it takes like a half an hour to get to Maw's only perma spawn, unless you get lucky at one of his other random spawns. SS is used a lot because you can get it right outside rankor, where as FoC is either way north of Deldrimor War Camp or way south of Beacon's

Qdq Swi · Mar 06, 2008, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by matsif

I think FoC would be used MUCH more than it is now because it is just so darn hard to cap...it takes like a half an hour to get to Maw's only perma spawn, unless you get lucky at one of his other random spawns. SS is used a lot because you can get it right outside rankor, where as FoC is either way north of Deldrimor War Camp or way south of Beacon's

Or.. you could always tome it... FoC has a long arss recharge.. and the damage isnt worth the wait imo. If it was really that good people would cap and use it.

Ensign · Mar 09, 2008, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

A. I think Ensign's low opinion of SS stems in part from his belief that it only goes on non-priority targets.

Spiteful Spirit on a priority target does not justify a skill slot, elite or non-elite. There are a dozen skills I'd put on my bar over Spiteful Spirit in that case.

Give me a break. Of course I know you can put it on a priority target? Why would you think that would change my opinion of the skill? It is utter shit on a priority target. Whenever there are multiple enemies around you are always better off putting it on a non-priority target in my experience - even from the perspective of killing the priority target - and if there's only one enemy I always have something better to spend my energy on than Spiteful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If you've got a priority target that's peskily resilient, not only can you put SS on it, but you should put SS on it to break it.

No, you shouldn't. You should find whatever fast-attacking enemy is going to deal the most damage with Spiteful on it and put it on them. After several swings, whatever healer is keeping your target alive is going to start diverting heals to the Spitefulled foe, which gives you a much bigger opening for a kill than if you had wasted it on your priority target.

If you are having any sort of trouble knocking off a priority target without any healing present, your build fails in new and impressive ways that Spiteful is not going to be able to fix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

SS looks a lot more attractive if you're willing to occasionally use it inefficiently

A lot more attractive? It's *a lot* more attractive because you can use it inefficiently on targets where it is minimally effective?

No argument that skills that aren't completely dead in certain situations are more valuable, all else being equal, than skills that are dead sometimes; but when it's still so weak that it's still the weakest skill on your bar, and the worst usage of time and energy *when you should have more skills than you have time and energy for*?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

B. Historically, SS has been the "win button" for GW PvE.

It still is, in Normal Mode PvE. It is just rather slow.

The value of the skill goes something like this:

No matter what else your team brings, no matter what they do or don't do in a fight, Spiteful Spirit will eventually kill everything on its own. Also, no matter how you use Spiteful Spirit, no matter what you put it on, it will eventually kill everything on its own. As long as you targeted enemies and pushed the Spiteful Spirit button, things would die. With a few exceptions, all your team needed to do was manage to not die until Spiteful could do its work.

It was an exceptionally good skill in PUGs, or early in the game when no one had any idea what they were doing, because of the above. You just had to be able to push the Spiteful button a lot and you'd be able to complete almost everything in PvE.

It's still decent for that reason even today. No matter how bad your team is, or how much you've had to drink, as long as you can push the Spiteful button your team will be able to kill things. It's a mindless skill that had enough raw power that, given time to work, will solve most problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. When the rest of the team is not 7 kick-ass characters from the outset.

Oh, Koss and General Morgahn and Talon Silverwing are plenty beastly enough to make Spiteful Spirit one of the weakest skills on your bar. The problem with heroes and henchmen is that they are, in effect, an extension of the player controlling them. A competent player with herohench is going to find Spiteful to be one of the weaker skills on their bar. A weak player with the same heroes and henchmen is going to achieve much less, and falling back to the 'this will eventually kill things for me' elite that Spiteful Spirit provides starts to become attractive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. (As Ensign noted,) When something goes wrong and your kick-ass team fails to insta-kill a mob, SS has time to do its thing. At that point SS again becomes the skill that's primarily responsible for victory.

Depends on the power of the rest of your build. If your offense is anemic, then sure, it'll be primarily responsible for victory. If you have a real offense, though, SS is something that provides the tipping point, not the skill primarily responsible for victory.

I like to joke when running a Rt/A that I am responsible for all of the team's kills, because in some situations the Ancestor's Rage is the assist that pushes the Warriors over the top. That doesn't make it the skill primarily responsible for the kills; it's simply the last part added to the equation that finally broke the threshold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. When you're badly outnumbered.

The efficiency goes up from the AoE in those cases, but it doesn't fundamentally change the way the skill is functioning; it's something you put on targets that you don't plan on paying much attention to, softening them up, while you focus your attention elsewhere. It does become rather efficient damage when you can't kill foes fast enough and the AoE gets to build up, that's for certain; you simply have to ask if softening up a bunch of foes is the best use for your elite.

Before Wail of Doom, I thought that, yes, given the other options that was the best use for your elite. Now, I don't think it's a remotely fair contest if you can aim the Wail reasonably well. If you want to play pure fire and forget, Spiteful is still what you want for that role, but for raw killing ability, Wail of Doom runs laps around Spiteful.

Longasc · Mar 09, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Why? I much prefer to inflict poison on the enemy rather than sac myself. Recharge is the only thing better on Rip, and I don't see that as a major issue since you are only removing one targeted enchant.

Spell. Remove 1 enchantment from target foe. If an enchantment was removed, that foe suffers from Bleeding for 5...21...25 seconds.

5-1-10

- It does not sac life anymore.

Just to add one more thought to the SS debate: It is true, especially in EOTN, that Mark of Pain, Splinter Weapon and Enfeebling Blood contribute more. Often due to positioning and mobs spreading apart.

What I do not get is this "good in Normal Mode" crap. I just want to take Vloxen Excavations as example, which is nothing to talk about in Normal Mode, but becomes a beast in Hard Mode. SS, Mark of Pain and Corner Blocking really wipe the floor there.

SS just works, and the more mobs, the merrier. Often the rest of the bar can contribute more, but why take it as elite slot?

Because the other skills do nothing of value in PvE. Corrupt Enchantment - rather use Gaze of Contempt or Rip Enchantment? Depravity - nerfed to lame levels. Feast of Corruption just suffers because SS can yield similar and often much better results. Lingering Curse - I wonder if it gets the energy cost reduced. Order of Apostasy - pray that no barrager hits all targets! Pain of Disenchantment - Dunno, I also do not know anybody else who used it so far. Plague Signet - rather take Plague Sending for the mass effect. And the more important BHA is something rangers carry along. Oh well, some more elites, and they are all not that good. ... and now I am too lazy to list the other elites, which I do not value too useful either.

I did not test Wail of Doom in PvE so far, maybe you can use it to keep down a monk, but I would still rather spread SS on multiple targets.

I guess this "killing key targets fast" is a pvp lesson transferred to pve, where it is still true. "Killing the whole group" is a PvE lesson that cannot be applied that easily to pvp, on the other hand,

Carinae · Mar 09, 2008, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Spell. Remove 1 enchantment from target foe. If an enchantment was removed, that foe suffers from Bleeding for 5...21...25 seconds.

5-1-10

- It does not sac life anymore.

That was before the recent update. Rip is unquestionably better now, except in the case where you want to apply poison specifically.

I would expect a buff to Envenom soon.

Trvth Jvstice · Mar 09, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

[skill]assassin's promise[/skill] [skill]mark of pain[/skill] [skill]barbs[/skill] [skill]weaken armor[/skill] [skill]shadow of fear[/skill] [skill]enfeebling blood[/skill] [skill]reckless haste[/skill] [skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

I used an [skill=text]arcane echo[/skill] [skill=text]spiteful spirit[/skill] build for a long time, but since I switched to the build above (with slight variations depending on where I'm playing) I've found that mobs actually die quicker.

With a normal mob, I put enfeeebling blood on the mele targets (they're usually grouped together at first), then put Barbs and WA on priority targets and send Koss and the fighter hench after it. Then I put Mark of pain on a Mele and use AP on a target that's about to die, and presto! MoP is ready to use again. I use RH/SoF on a mele that's giving me or anyone else problems. I find that I don't use RH/SoF that often unless the battle becomes drawn out,though I do seem to use them more often with PUGs than with HH.

Where this build really shines is in a mob with a boss (compared to the way I used to use SS), Barbs and WA gets the boss killed much faster than when I used to put SS on them. I usually save the boss for last, unless it's an Ele boss doing AoE. I just kill off all of the boss's pals and the boss is usually a piece of cake. Though, if I'm playing with a PUG, it's often difficult to convince them to save the boss for last.

Speaking of PUGS, I might switch to my old SS build when playing with them in the future. I PUG'd THK last night with the AP build, and both the warriors left, which left us with a monk, a ranger, 2 eles, and my hero monk. We still beat the mish and bonus, but it took quite a bit longer than usual, since MoP, Barbs, and WA were made useless.

EDIT: I'll probably replace SoF with [skill=text]rigor mortis[/skill]

Qdq Swi · Mar 09, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

[skill]assassin's promise[/skill] [skill]mark of pain[/skill] [skill]barbs[/skill] [skill]weaken armor[/skill] [skill]shadow of fear[/skill] [skill]enfeebling blood[/skill] [skill]reckless haste[/skill] [skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

EDIT: I'll probably replace SoF with [skill=text]rigor mortis[/skill]

I prefer Meekness to SoF... Then again Meekness has a heavy sac... Id still use it tbh mind ;p.

Kawil · Mar 09, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

SS is my main Elite. I very rarely run with anything else. That's not to say that it's the best out there because, as with all skills, it serves different purposes depending on the makeup of your enemies.

It is MORE important to cast it on the correct target than just tossing it in. Mobs are great for SS and when I group with my guildies the mob dies as one. Target is called...I target then switch once or twice and cast on THAT guy and PB him for cover. I don't use enfeeble blood or reckless haste or even archane.

Once SS is on an covered, I switch targets, usually putting Insid+PB on them. My time on that mob is over so I switch to the backline...Monks, Mez...etc. Usually, by this time, SS has recharged. I pick the baddie square in the middle of the backline SS+PB them then hit them with (if it's a monk) Faint, Phantasm, Necrosis.

SS does not kill by itself. But it sure does weaken your foes and keeps the pressure on the monks to heal everything. It's all about placement.

Chthon · Mar 10, 2008, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Give me a break. Of course I know you can put it on a priority target? Why would you think that would change my opinion of the skill? It is utter shit on a priority target. Whenever there are multiple enemies around you are always better off putting it on a non-priority target in my experience - even from the perspective of killing the priority target

Whenever SS can deliver the last 100 or 200 or 300 damage that kills a problem creature or two and lets you go back into auto-slaughter mode for the survivors, it's worth it, even if SS ends up ending itself early for it. It's better to get the needed kills() and return to auto-slaughter mode quickly than to let SS run its full duration on a peripheral monster that you're going to kill instantly once you get around to it anyway. As a way to deal with healers and self-healers (which I agree are the only ones that are going to put up much resistance), SS has this interesting effect that the more intensely they heal, the more damage SS does. As much as I love them both, MoP and Barbs don't scale with the monster's ability to resist the way that SS does.

I would agree that a problem target should get Barbs first, and MoP if there's adjacent targets to hit that will draw healing off the primary target, and maybe even the new weaken armor (and vanguard assassin if you're using it to follow your Barbs/MoP). In that sense, SS is a lower priority spell than Barbs/MoP. But once you've done that, if the target isn't dropping, there's nothing wrong with using SS to break the target.

Do you have better options to deal that last 100/200/300 to a priority target? That aren't already on your bar? Perhaps. Do any of them also serve as a back-up "win button" if your business-as-normal offense falters? Probably not. SS serves a dual role as passable problem-critter-finisher and back-up win-through-pressure button.

Quote:

You should find whatever fast-attacking enemy is going to deal the most damage with Spiteful on it and put it on them. After several swings, whatever healer is keeping your target alive is going to start diverting heals to the Spitefulled foe, which gives you a much bigger opening for a kill than if you had wasted it on your priority target.

I half-agree. I should have said, "SS on a faster-acting foe adjacent to your target if you've got one, and otherwise on your target." That's better damage on your primary target and diverts some healing.
I'm not a big fan of spitefulling a fast-swinging foe that's totally off somewhere else for the sole purpose of drawing healing away from my primary target. Since the primary target is still taking the most heat (unless the SS-ed target is incredibly weak or the team's offense is incredibly sucky), the healer tends to snap back to the primary target. If my goal was to kill a particular priority target, I'd only put SS on a non-adjacent target if it was the healer or maybe if it really annoying me and I just wanted it dead.

Quote:

No matter what else your team brings, no matter what they do or don't do in a fight, Spiteful Spirit will eventually kill everything on its own. Also, no matter how you use Spiteful Spirit, no matter what you put it on, it will eventually kill everything on its own. As long as you targeted enemies and pushed the Spiteful Spirit button, things would die. With a few exceptions, all your team needed to do was manage to not die until Spiteful could do its work.

It was an exceptionally good skill in PUGs, or early in the game when no one had any idea what they were doing, because of the above. You just had to be able to push the Spiteful button a lot and you'd be able to complete almost everything in PvE.

It's still decent for that reason even today. No matter how bad your team is, or how much you've had to drink, as long as you can push the Spiteful button your team will be able to kill things. It's a mindless skill that had enough raw power that, given time to work, will solve most problems.

With this I largely agree.

Quote:

Oh, Koss and General Morgahn and Talon Silverwing are plenty beastly enough to make Spiteful Spirit one of the weakest skills on your bar.

I find Koss and Talon do a poor job of reliably following a called Barbs/MoP; they tend to get distracted on the way there. Talon also has the problem that he does little more for the team than proc Barbs/MoP. Morghan and Olias's minions tend to be more reliable helpers.

Quote:

Before Wail of Doom, I thought that, yes, given the other options that was the best use for your elite. Now, I don't think it's a remotely fair contest if you can aim the Wail reasonably well. If you want to play pure fire and forget, Spiteful is still what you want for that role, but for raw killing ability, Wail of Doom runs laps around Spiteful.

Aside from neutering a single annoying healer at an opportune moment, what use is WoD? Are you really getting that much mileage from that sort of single-target shutdown?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

I guess this "killing key targets fast" is a pvp lesson transferred to pve, where it is still true. "Killing the whole group" is a PvE lesson that cannot be applied that easily to pvp, on the other hand,

I agree.